Is It time to revive the Briggs Plan ?

There were Chinese who disagreed with the Communists, but they along with other Malayans were forced to cooperate with the Communists. The program involved the forced relocation of Chinese immigrants and others who were located in or near the Malayan jungle to new settlements. The new settlements were given around the clock police supervision and were partially fortified. The British also tried to win the hearts of the new settlers by providing them with education, health services and homes with water and electricity.

source

Ok we know that in order to win a counter insurgency you have to separate the insurgents from the local population as well as win the hearts and mind battle.

So I put forward adopting the Briggs Plan and implementing it in Southern Afghanistan. The plan isnt perfect people are forced to move to other areas but it is a much lesser evil then the current state of affairs. Once people have been relocated they will have better access to education and health care e.t.c

After the local population has been separated from the enemy the hearts and minds battle can be won. The Briggs plan would only form a part of the plan that leads to the war being won in Afghanistan. The coalition needs to expand the war into the tribal areas of Pakistan to ensure that the enemy has no haven.

The wiki page uses the Second Boer War as another example on which the same tactic was used. That War is not a good example.

The British used "scorched earth tactics" such as destroying crops, starving the population and forced the hungry women and children to run in the streets to demoralise the Boer.

When this proved unsuccessful, they herded the Boer women and children into concentration camps where conditions were appalling and disease and death was rife.

Can't see us using that tactic again.

When this proved unsuccessful, they herded the Boer women and children into concentration camps where conditions were appalling and disease and death was rife.

Isn't the Boer War in fact the origin of the term "concentration camp"?

I don't feel very optimistic about this as a potential strategy - if anything, it will probably just drive more recruits into the hands of the Taleban - people generally get angry when forced out of their homes at gunpoint, and become irrational.

Just ask the Israelis.


[edit on 8/27/07 by xmotex]

Don't get me wrong I understand peoples concerns but surely people can see that there is a difference between providing health care and other basic services and throwing people into a concentration camp . The Briggs plan would have to amended for Afghanistan naturally.
Rather then forcing people to move perhaps people could be prevented from moving to another location or people moving into town that way it would be simpler it would be simpler to keep track of who comes and goes.

I'm an open minded kind of guy if you think that you have a better plan feel free to post it on this thread.

posted by xpert11
Ok we know that in order to win a counter insurgency you have to separate the insurgents from the local population as well as win the hearts and mind battle. So I put forward adopting the Briggs Plan and implementing it in Southern Afghanistan. After the local population has been separated from the enemy the hearts and minds battle can be won. The Briggs plan would only form a part of the plan that leads to the war being won in Afghanistan.

Separate? Physically or ideologically? We had those in Vietnam, Mr X11. Purpose built carefully sited fortified villages. People we thought “friendly” to us were either forced - who knows? - or lured into the villages by money or other scarce items or privileges.

This is a dumb Westerner’s idea of life. Why do you think we have Orientals and Occidentals? West Euro types especially those whose ancestors left the Old Country for the US, Canada, Australia or New Zealand, think half the problems in life can be solved merely by Moving On. What worked for us should work for them.

We have no regard for our own dead ancestors. In fact we often demean Orientals accusing them of “ancestor worship.” A tall tale begun by our own missionaries for all the wrong reasons. In fact it is RESPECT and REVERENCE for the antiquity of their ancestors that is the compelling factor. Do not dishonor your ancestors!

Not a magic act as when we pray in front of a painted plastic or stone image or count beads for a reversal of nature. “Make it rain GOD” when we are in a drought, “make it STOP raining GOD” when we’re in a flood. That's Crapola. IMO.

By the Bye, I think the Blair Plan also failed. The Malays got their freedom.

[edit on 8/28/2007 by donwhite]

reply to post by xpert11


xpert11: “The Briggs plan would have to [be] amended for Afghanistan naturally.

Rather then forcing people to move

perhaps people could be prevented from moving”

Xpert11, do you see what you are saying? It’s no wonder we cannot combat the insurgents anywhere. We don’t know what drives them and we don’t have the slightest idea how they see us.

Remember the US Army captain who said into the tv news camera, "We had to destroy the village to save it." Instantly, I knew we had lost the Vietnam war, if we had ever "won" it. We are fast becoming IRRELEVANT to the world.

Come Quick, Sweet Jesus!

[edit on 8/28/2007 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite
Separate? Physically or ideologically? We had those in Vietnam, Mr X11. Purpose built carefully sited fortified villages. People we thought “friendly” to us were either forced - who knows? - or lured into the villages by money or other scarce items or privileges.

Such an idea actually works quiet well providing that you don't destroy half the village before hand. Quiet often by just adding access to clean water closer to home you improve someone quality of life significantly.

As for luring people to the village you may not want to that because the enemy is always looking to gather intel and infiltrate areas of importance. Before any thought was given to increasing the local population enemy informants or active members of the insurgency need to be detained.

reply to post by xpert11


I don’t want to continue beating the Blair Plan assuming it is now a ‘dead horse.’ I’m sure it seemed to be a reasonable and compassionate plan when it was advanced and employed.

The real problem is that we westerners have different values than so many of the older civilizations we are dealing with. We have so little knowledge about and almost no respect for them. Due only to our superior technology, we are confused into thinking our culture is superior which it usually is not. Every time a woman is stoned to death in Afghan - about 6 a year - we beat our chests over our superior wisdom! When a woman is forced to wear a burqa, we self-congratulate.

Of course, we overlook the degradation, humiliation and all too frequently the premature death suffered by millions of young women driven into prostitution - or pornography - in our own societies. Hey, dying in the street of an overdose is better than being stoned to death! Sez who? Are you even vaguely familiar with the outrages committed in Tijuana?

Some day, maybe, we will begin to respect other people.

[edit on 8/29/2007 by donwhite]

What makes the Middle Easter people tick is their religious and Ideological believes.

You can never change, manipulate and fight that, is part of every human being even we here in America have our own version of it and I don't see anybody giving that away.

Through history we have seen how invasion and manipulation of populations never works.

Because people will always fight what they consider an oppressor for what they consider their rights to their existance and their land.

Sad.

[edit on 29-8-2007 by marg6043]

reply to post by marg6043


Marg6043: What makes the Middle Eastern people tick is their religious and Ideological beliefs. You can never change, manipulate and fight that, is part of every human being even we here in America have our own version of it and I don't see anybody giving that away.

Through history we have seen how invasion and manipulation of populations never works. Because people will always fight what they consider an oppressor for what they consider their rights to their existence and their land. Sad.

Yes, Marg, it is sad. I cannot forget that we killed by our own count, 700,000 Vietnamese and by their count, 3,000,000. And we lost 59,000 KIA of our own. And that war changed America forever, as they like tike to say and I don’t like but used it this time. I used it because the Vietnam War cost Hubert Humphrey the 1968 election! In my heart of hearts I will always believe Humphrey would have stopped the War within 6 months of his taking office, by June or July, 1969. The public voted to END the war but Nixon would not, instead he carried it on 6 more years during which time 22,000 Americans went KIA. No thanks, Mr Nixon, No thanks Mr Kissinger. You did us wrong.

Now we have the same re-run of history. A lost war but again unable to bring ourselves to show the courage to remove ourselves from a place we are no longer welcome. We are confused, we are speculating about what will happen when we leave. Arguing if we leave in a special way, we can still influence events after we are gone. Sweet Jesus! Are we crazy? Are we all flying on Dr Timothy Leary’s '___' Airlines?

reply to post by donwhite


Is the greed DonWhite, that need for dominance and that need for profits making and oil.

How can this administration that invested billions of borrowed dollars of our economy in Iraq can leave now without a drop of their most precious resources wanted by every nation that have none.

Is no about lives is about greed.

I acknowledge that cultural sensitively is a vital part of counter insurgency warfare. The people of Afghanistan are very differnt from the people of Iraq and the coalition is still welcome in Afghanistan which means that once the insurgency is defeated the country will have a bright.

Westerns do have differnt values but take the likes of women's rights and girls going to school do you really want to throw that away just because the coalition failed to fight an effective counter insurgency war ?

Expert in Afghanistan the only part of the nation that is controlled and flourishing is the area where the major city is the capital, the rest of the country is till under the power of warlords, right now the only thing Afghanistan is producing is opium.

Iraq is difference Iraq has oil, the population of Iraq knows that US is after that oil and because of that they will never give away and will fight to the end.

Meanwhile our government going after that oil has gotten our nation in a big mess and a big debt so it has to keep the fight on terror alive and the insurgency alive to have an excuse to stay in Iraq.

Nobody in our government cares who die in Iraq, be our soldiers or civilians as long as the goal is achieved and right now they are so desperate that they will take any type of government just to get that goal.

Originally posted by xmotex
Isn't the Boer War in fact the origin of the term "concentration camp"?

Yep,
it's when it first came into the English language.

Originally posted by marg6043
Expert in Afghanistan the only part of the nation that is controlled and flourishing is the area where the major city is the capital, the rest of the country is till under the power of warlords, right now the only thing Afghanistan is producing is opium.

The only problem with that argument is that the production of opium in Northern Afghanistan has fallen although not surprisingly this isnt reported in many of the media stories. Northern Afghanistan is relatively stable and the lack of reconstruction in that area of the country can only be explained by the focus being placed on the sideshow in Iraq.

While the report found that opium production dropped in northern Afghanistan, Western officials briefed on the assessment said, cultivation rose in the south, where Taliban insurgents urge farmers to grow poppies.

source



Imagen the kind of reconstruction projects that could have been funded if a fraction of the money spend on the Iraq war had been spend on nation building in Afghanistan.

Actually Afghanistan gets money the government gets help from the US but like you said it doesn't reach the northern and far away areas of the nation, it helps keep the government afloat and flourishing while tuck safely away in the nations main city.

Good point Marg . There are a couple of factors at work the first is that nation building due to its nature is an expensive exercise. However the costs can be inflated when corporate interests are put before that of the tax payer.

In al fairness I should also mention that the provisional reconstruction teams are doing a good job at rebuilding infrastructure which goes a long way towards winning the hearts and mind battle which is all important. Heck even New Zealand has a small but welcome presence in Afghanistan in such a manner.

Edit: I found this article it can be hard to find good news but it well worth looking for such items.

Thirty-one students, including eight women, graduated April 12, 2007 from the basic course at Bamyan Regional Training Centre (RTC).

There were four female police officers in Bamyan when the New Zealanders arrived in Afghanistan in October 2006. Three of the women had just graduated from the basic course while the other one had been a police officer for 10 months.

source

[edit on 30-8-2007 by xpert11]

posted by marg6043
Actually Afghanistan gets money the government gets help from the US but like you said it doesn't reach the northern and far away areas of the nation, it helps keep the government afloat and flourishing while tuck safely away in the nations main city.

I give no credit to the Taliban, but in 2002, the acres of poppy fell to the lowest amount since record keeping began in the 1960s. About 5,000 acres. I give them no credit because now under the resurgent Taliban, the acreage has risen to an all time record of 400,000 acres. 80% of the opium in the world is now grown in Afghan. Why is it the United States has the greatest presence in Afghan and it grows opium out of which morphine is made? The primo source.

Why is it the United States has the greatest presence in Columbia and it grows 90% of the coco plant out of which coc aine is made? The primo source.

Are we the NEW British in a re-run of the Chinese Opium Wars of the 18th and 19th centuries? And (dumb) Americans are the Chinese coolies of old?

Everybody knows the Karzan government in Afghan is an American puppet and everybody knows the al Maliki government in Iraq is an American puppet. Are we running TWO Vietnams at one time in 2007?

[edit on 9/12/2007 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite
Everybody knows the Karzan government in Afghan is an American puppet and everybody knows the al Maliki government in Iraq is an American puppet. Are we running TWO Vietnams at one time in 2007?

My answer is no . According to a UN report most of the suicide bombers in Afghanistan aren't locals. A mistake that people seem to make is to bundle Afghanistan in the same basket as Iraq. The coalition are still welcome in Afghanistan and the country is in the middle of a civil war . Now the only thing holding up political progress in Afghanistan is the security situation.

A part of the reason that the enemy is enjoy a resurgence in Iraq is to many troops are tied town in Iraq and countries like Germany and New Zealand limit themselves to a non combatant role. The US and the UK don't have enough manpower to to win the war in either of the two major theaters.

reply to post by xpert11


donwhite:
Q. Are we running TWO Vietnams at one time in 2007?

Xpert11:
My answer is no. The coalition are still welcome in Afghanistan and the country is in the middle of a civil war. Now the only thing holding up political progress in Afghanistan is the security situation. The enemy is enjoy a resurgence in Iraq is too many troops are tied town in Iraq and countries like Germany and New Zealand limit themselves to a non combatant role. The US and the UK don't have enough manpower to win the war in either of the two major theaters.

DW:
You know Mr X11, it was not immediately clear to me but I think I am beginning to get a handle on this Iraq and Afghan thing. In both cases, the resistance is in opposition to the ATTEMPT of the United States to impose a hand picked PUPPET government in Kabul and Baghdad. We carefully manipulated both candidates and elections in both places. Our justifying mantra now is that we are (killing) in SUPPORT of the so-called elected governments. In reality it is our BARE KNUCKLES effort to set up a Quisling or Vichy regime in both countries.

I am satisfied this will never work in Afghan. 0%. I give the US less than a 50% chance of imposing its own ExxonMobil government in Iraq. Of course, Iraq is 50X - 100X more valuable to the US than Afghan. OTOH as they grow more and more opium producing poppy, Afghan will begin to rival Columbia as our BEST FRIENDS. Can you foresee another drop in illicit drug prices on the street?

Generally in the past we have run countries through the IMF and WB. With the USMC or CIA always visible in the background. Ask Guatemala. Ask Chile. Ask Panama. Iraq and Afghan may be exceptions to the rule.

[edit on 9/12/2007 by donwhite]